Watch the episode and follow DNCO 20/20 here.

Full transcript:

Simon: Welcome to this episode of DNCO 20/20, where we look back at 20 projects over 20 years — how we made them, and the impact they had on us as a studio and the world around us. I’m Simon Yewdall, and today I’m talking to Sonia Solicari, Director and CEO of Museum of the Home, an East London institution and the place to explore and debate what home means. Welcome, Sonia.

Sonia: Thank you for having me.

Simon: I had a quick go at introducing the museum, but I’d love to hear your description of what the Museum of the Home is.

Sonia: I think the best way of describing it is that we ask every visitor the question: what does home mean to you? So yes, we are that platform for debate and conversation, but it’s also a very relatable place where, whether it’s a positive connotation of home or a negative connotation of home, everyone has that idea. And this is the place to really explore what that means, whether your idea of home matches what others’ idea of home might be, and where that leaves us for the future.

Simon: I love that. Would you mind giving a bit of a physical description for people who haven’t had the wonder of visiting you?

Sonia: We cover the history of the UK home from 1600 to the future, and that’s the most expansive view of the UK home. So really we ask: what does that mean? Because obviously it’s been centuries of migration and changing concepts of the meaning of home. Our collections date back to the 1600s, and historically we’ve done that through period room sets which I can talk about later, because I think that’s a practice we still very much believe in. But we recently went through — when I say recently, back in 2018 — we closed for a capital redevelopment project to double public space, which means that for the first time we had thematic galleries as well as period room sets. And we had much more space, I think, to hold those debates and conversations. We had a studio space, a learning pavilion. Now we’re expanding even further into something called the Hive, which is going to be opening in the spring. And again, that’s going to be a multi-use space — film, performance, exhibition, café. So that’s really what we do. We provide space for what is, when you get down to it, quite a complicated topic.

Simon: I want to go back to that point of getting your capital funding. And take us back, because I do remember meeting you on the project, and some of the ways that people were describing the museum — and in fact the museum had a different name too — were kind of funny in some regards really. Beloved by a certain group of wonderful, tasteful, middle-class ladies. That was the audience way back when. But it was also known as the Museum of Dusty Furniture. 

Take us back to how people thought of the museum, whether that was accurate or not, and maybe a little bit around the ultimate challenge of trying to change people’s relationship to it.

Sonia: When I joined, and indeed for many decades, it had been called the Geffrye Museum, and it had morphed in more recent times to being the Geffrye Museum of the Home. It had a real furniture focus, and that was for really valid reasons, because the furniture trade had been huge in that part of town. When the museum was first created in 1914, it was very much to speak to the local furniture industry and furniture trade.

And very early on, I’m talking the 1930s, curators started to realise that furniture made most sense in context. That’s when they started to create room sets and engage much more with schoolchildren. And it started to morph into the museum of the home. But it did have a furniture focus, which is probably what you picked up on.

And I think the reason behind the refurbishment —  I can’t lay claim to the idea (the redevelopment of the site that happened under the previous director) — is because everybody realised that the museum needed to morph into its next phase and transform again.

Simon: That reminds me a little bit of that context piece around the history of furniture in the area. I think another early conversation we had was the need to broaden that audience piece. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
 

Sonia: That part of East London is one of the most diverse parts of the UK. There was much more of a need for the organisation to be meeting those audiences and those communities — telling the story of home in a way that meant something to many more people. The displays previously had been focused on middle-class interiors, predominantly white-owned homes.

And all the homes represented would have been families or set-ups where people would have had some disposable income — a fairly affluent middle class. And when that was done, it was super important, because back in the 1990s or even earlier, really nowhere else was doing the middle-class home. You could visit stately homes, or there were museums dedicated to working-class histories, but that was a need that was felt to be useful at the time. But come 2018, when the redevelopment was happening, times had changed, and people wanted something different. Our audiences were speaking, they were saying “you’re not representing us, we don’t see our idea of home here”. As an organisation, you have to listen to that voice when it’s being shouted so loudly.

Simon: I love how much it’s changed in programming and concept, to respond to those different ideas of home and different perspectives. We should talk a little bit about how we got involved — and thank you very much for having us be involved. Quite strangely for us, we do a lot of things at DNCO and wayfinding is a big part of what we do, but wayfinding tends to come almost at the end. With this project, it started with wayfinding. I think we were commissioned — is it right that we did the wayfinding before the brand? Do you remember the timeline? 

Sonia: I think that’s right. I was even trying to think — gosh, what happened first? And then I thought, does it even matter? Because when we start to talk about what ended up happening, it wasn’t a straightforward linear process anyway. Yes, you were originally commissioned to do the wayfinding — because that was very much needed as part of the redevelopment. As I said, we were doubling public space and reorientating the whole site. That was an absolutely crucial part of the visitor experience.

Simon: It might be worth describing what physically happened to the museum.

Sonia: We dug down into the basement. The basement had previously been storage, and you could barely stand up down there because the head height was so low — it definitely wasn’t a space that could have been used by the public. We were also storing collections down there in very inhospitable conditions: a bit damp, prone to flooding. Something urgently needed to be done. We ended up taking the collections out of the basement, putting them in much better-housed storage — both off-site and on-site in newly created stores. And we converted that space into gallery space by digging down a metre along the entire East Wing. That was a whole new gallery created there.

Simon: Do you remember the moment when you thought, there’s a lot of change here, we need to think about our brand?
 

Sonia: It was a gradual dawning, really. But looking back — gradual, yet within a very focused time period. When I came in, I knew the capital project was happening and that it needed to be done. And I think looking at it afresh, I thought, my gosh, this opens up so many possibilities beyond the actual physical transformation of the site. What does that really mean? So we started to work a little bit on our vision and mission — but quite early on, we thought we can probably do this thing, which is to be the Museum of the Home, with everything that entails. Because it’s a really intimidating concept; it’s an intimidating subject matter. And we just needed that little bit of breathing space within the site to think, all right, this could happen. And then I remember tentatively coming to DNCO and saying: “We’ve got these burgeoning ideas, and we think we want to change the name of the place and become Museum of the Home.” Because it had been, as I said, the Geffrye Museum of the Home — as a sort of sub-clause. And then there was all the decision-making that had to go through the board around that. And if you remember, in the end, we ended up giving you a very difficult brief — which was: we wanted to half-change it over some years, to morph the brand gradually. I think the board were very nervous about a wholesale name change. Because when we say rebrand, a rebrand can mean that you just kind of refresh the font and the look. We were changing the name of the organisation. So rightly, the board were pretty nervous about how that might land with established audiences, how we might find the new audiences that the new brand would speak to.

And we came to you with a really, really nervous brief, which was: can you change it a bit? Maybe halfway? Well — no, it turns out.

Simon: It’s about that journey of building confidence, which is quite interesting. Do you have a memory of your favourite part of the process?

Sonia: I think it was those meetings with all of you where you were just so gentle about it, you just said, you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to go for it. We feel it’s the only way; you can’t half-change the brand or morph it over several years — just go for it, because we believe in you. And I think to have that external voice when you had no skin in the game, you’d already been commissioned to do something for us, so you didn’t have to sell your services anymore. You were genuinely saying, we believe. So it was a very powerful moment, I think.

Simon: That is something I always reflect on with these processes. I honestly feel it’s holding a mirror up and going: look, you’re this great — do it, go for it, jump all in. It feels so crazy that we’re even thinking anything else now, because it does unlock so much new connection and new thinking, which you want when you’re investing so much in a place.

Sonia: And it was a real catalyst. It’s so interesting, because if you read a lot of management books — or certainly the kinds that were available back then; I think now everybody’s much more fluid about how you look at taking an organisation forward — everything back then was: you’ve got to get your vision, your mission, your values; you’ve got to embed it first before realising the brand. And to do it almost simultaneously. We were doing all of those at exactly the same time. We weren’t really waiting for one to finish before starting the next. We had all of those tracks going at once, and that was quite liberating and terrifying in equal measures.

But it definitely worked. I think if we had been trying to change the vision gradually, over many years, we’d still be trying to do it — still trying to tell people what we’re about. Whereas that name change did it all for us in one fell swoop. And we knew that everything else was bringing up the rear. The capital project was in motion; we were changing the displays. So all of that — we knew was coming. We could lead with that name change. Whereas, yes, some of the advice at the time was: you need to get through the capital project, see how it lands, then think about something like this name change. But we knew it was do it all, do it now. We’re in transformation, we’re in change, let’s do it all now.

Simon: And now, thinking back, there were some real speed bumps — in the journey as we went through. We had definite deep considerations about the board; also the Friends of the Geffrye. We had the Geffrye naming change and what that signified, at a particular time — around George Floyd and everything — as well as then going into the pandemic when we were thinking about launching. I think it would be interesting to just cover some of that journey. Do you want to reflect on the speed bumps we went through?

Sonia: When we changed the name initially, when we started that process, we were going into closure with no idea what was coming on the horizon, in terms of pandemics, and also the renewed conversation about the statue. And then we actually launched the brand during closure. It was 2019 when we launched the brand. And then in 2020, everything started to change quite dramatically. And we were still finding our feet with that brand when everything else started to happen. I think a significant moment was, yes, the death of George Floyd and the toppling of the statue of Colston in Bristol. Because that meant there was a lot of renewed attention on the statue of Robert Geffrye. And Robert Geffrye — who had funded the building of the original almshouses in which the museum was housed — had made his money through investments in transatlantic slavery. And there were really significant calls to move that statue, to take it down off the building. That was a really, really big moment for the museum. Interestingly though, we had already changed the name.

Simon: It came before.

Sonia: Yes, before these calls. Obviously we’d always known about Robert Geffrye’s history, and we were addressing that as part of the redevelopment. But we were very much in the “interpret the statue in situ” mindset. And the calls to move it shifted us into another zone.

Simon: How is that part of your history now incorporated into the museum experience?
 

Sonia: Because it’s a Grade I listed building, we still haven’t managed to move the statue of Robert Geffrye. But the board has been very public in saying that it’s its intention to explore moving it elsewhere, and we’re working through the processes of what that really means for a Grade I listed building. The government has also issued some guidance, which we’re working our way through. There are lots and lots of steps.

We are still in a situation where we’re interpreting it in situ; visitors can find out a lot from the text panel, the QR codes, and there’s lots of information on our website about Robert Geffrye and his history. But we were very keen that it wasn’t solely about the statue — that we fundamentally changed as an organisation as well. We look at colonial histories of the home, because that is our subject matter, and we look at wider histories throughout the building as well. How are our spaces colonial? We’re looking at our gardens, at things like: what does it mean to have a lawn? How is that a controlling space? We have two restored almshouse buildings, and we’re looking at how you reconcile that idea of making money through transatlantic slavery and charitable giving. These are things that we are tackling head on in our programming, and really coming to grips with that. But I think, in a way, not being able to move the statue has been another transformative thing for us. Because I think if we had been able to move it immediately, I don’t think we would have put quite the thought into more embedded transformation as an organisation, and really questioning everything we do — looking at it through that decolonial lens. And we continue to do so, because the statue continues to stay there. As much as many of us want it moved, I think it being there has forced us to confront things in a much deeper way.

Simon: When we first came up with the new statement and vision for the museum, about being a place for debate, it proved to me quite quickly that it really showed the benefit of debate. And I think the way that you’ve been able to embrace debate and actively demonstrate that has been really powerful. We were talking earlier, before we started recording, around the industry and some of the challenges in the industry. And I do think, as much as it can be difficult to sometimes raise the funding, rebranding can be a real opportunity to help re-engage audiences or reinstate your curatorial brief, your purpose.

What would be your advice to anyone thinking about how they can use brand to help them in this new world order of museums?

Sonia: The whole process of rebranding and what you need to do when you’re rebranding, in terms of fundamentally thinking about your aims and why you exist in the world — helps you sharpen up the case for support, which is absolutely necessary now more than ever. Whether you’re writing an actual business case, or whether you’re writing an application to a trust or foundation, or whether you’re just telling a visitor why they should visit you that day — you really need to get that sharp. And having a really strong brand, and having gone through that process, definitely, definitely helps. Because you’re just able to say: this is who we are, and this is how we meet the need. That would be my advice — definitely look at it through that lens, the case for support.

Simon: One thing that reminds me to say — and it was a huge learning from that process for us — was the importance of urgency. The purpose is only good if it has urgency. We need people to come, we need people to visit, we need people to fund and to support us. And that was so clear. My candid take is that — dusty furniture doesn’t have a huge sense of urgency; it’s not hugely motivating to a lot of people. That feels like a really important measure of a good brand purpose. Do you have any others? What makes a good brand purpose for a museum?

Sonia: There’s got to be room for it to grow, built into the whole kind of concept. It’s got to be urgent. And as I was saying, you’ve got to build your case for support. But it can’t be inflexible either, because people have got to be able to see: OK, that’s what I want when I visit, or that’s what I want when I engage — but this is what I want to bring to it.

I think people — from the individual visitor to corporate supporters — want to see how they can make a change and how they can influence what is happening in a place. I think a brand that allows people to see that is powerful. Going back to the idea of what does home mean to you — I think that’s a really powerful ask, because everyone can see that they’re going to bring something as well as take something from the visit. It’s a two-way thing. It’s not us doing something to our visitors, or people passively coming and receiving wisdom from us. I hope that our visitors see that we genuinely want to know what home means to them. And they’re going to shift and change our organisation with each interaction. That’s a really powerful thing. And I think something like Museum of the Home really does that.
 

It was built into the design — because what really got us there was that whole ‘reveal and rethink’: the light, the shafts of light, the angles. Because that gives focus, but it’s flexible. I remember the visuals coming back to us — there was that visual of a door with a light. And that’s what I mean: you show something, but you could close the door more, or you could open it. That’s what I mean about flexibility. People being able to feel: I could close the door if I don’t want to see any more of that, or I could open it. It gives agency. And I think it means that people feel invested a bit more.

Simon: I need to give some context to listeners. The brand is rooted really in this idea of light and illumination. I remember having those early conversations as a team: what is home? So many different variations. We probably did give you lots of roof and house shaped structures — thinking about the structure you draw as a child — but that idea of the shape of a house felt almost antiquated. And we were thinking about how fire used to bring people together around the hearth — and then almost transporting that into coming around the TV. I think now we’re probably looking at our phones in bed. It’s quite a variation, but all of them have this idea of illumination. And so we built a brand around that — that graphic representation of light spilling in, opening and, as you say, opening doors and closing doors. 

Do you remember — did it feel immediately right? Because I think we showed you some different routes. Do you remember that design presentation and your feelings at that time?

Sonia: I definitely remember seeing the shafts of light and thinking: that is it. And at the same time, there was also the idea of how we might take it forward,  how that might translate into a publication or a magazine. There was a beautifully mocked-up magazine cover. And then I could immediately see how that conversation piece could be put across as well. Because at the time we were talking a lot about the museum as a magazine. There was that idea, wasn’t there? There can be an overall edit, but you can have guest editors too. You have your different sections — your fashion section, your review section, your long read. And that’s a really good way, I think, of looking at the museum format.

I think seeing that represented, what a Museum of the Home magazine could look like. It was a crystallising moment — and we thought, okay, yes, that’s it. And there was a beautiful image of somebody’s face with a shaft of light across it. You see some of everything, which is kind of how we all see the world, really. We never see all of everything, do we?

Simon: We can’t help it.

Sonia: You have to accept the limitations as well. Because I think with the home, and the meaning of home, you have to accept that that is never going to be a question that is ever answered. And once you acknowledge that, it opens up a lot of the practice and the thought processes.

Simon: Am I right in thinking that the idea of home — that place to debate and explore what home means — has been so good that we’ve managed to keep you staying at the museum?

Sonia: Yeah. I’ve been at the museum nine years this January. But it’s never felt like the same organisation, honestly, because as you know we were seeing it into closure, then we had the closure period with everything attached to that, like the pandemic, and then it was reopening. We reopened in 2021. It still feels like a new museum. Because 2021 was when we really tested our ideas. We’d done the rebrand in 2019, but nobody had seen that manifest in the displays. They could see it online, they could see the visuals, they knew it had happened — but they didn’t see it translated into the museum space. That was interesting too, that staggering of change.

Simon: I have to talk about the pandemic, because it was such an unfortunate speed bump when you’ve obviously invested all this money and it’s time to get those visitors in. One thing I did think was really, really smart was — again, I think the usefulness of doing the brand at that time was that it allowed you to apply a lens to how you operated online. And I think you did some really interesting things as a way of also proving the concept: does this purpose work? Is it interesting? How do we do it when we’re closed? Do you want to talk a little bit about what you did there?

Sonia: For a lot of that, the physical site was still closed. But then it did force us all into our homes — or definitely inside, whether or not we thought of those spaces as home is another matter. And we realised quite quickly that that was an opportunity for the newly formed Museum of the Home; if somebody should have an opinion and a take on this, if not us, who? We very, very quickly turned to a collecting rollout. We invited people to submit questionnaires about how they were living, along with photographs they had themselves taken in their domestic spaces. That formed part of our Stay Home collecting series. And that was championed by the BBC, so we got a really good, wide rollout for that — and a really, really good response. It’s a real snapshot of how people were living.

Simon: The engagement by the BBC around The Stay Home project — that was incredible. The endorsement by the BBC was amazing. Another good measure, just to show you how good the purpose of the Museum of the Home is, is getting those partnerships as well, because that’s another important test, isn’t it? Have you found that to be successful, or is it still a challenge trying to get partnerships?

Sonia: I think we’ve partnered with all kinds of people from all different perspectives that we weren’t even thinking about or considering. Everyone would always say, my gosh, have you worked with this furniture brand and that furniture brand? Those brands are still very much on our radar and we always love to work with them. But then it was also the NHS hiring our spaces for wellbeing for their staff, because it felt like a safe space and somewhere where people could engage with the content as well as have time out from their busy jobs. And we’ve been absolutely blown away by the number of people who want to launch their book at the museum — not just books directly about home, but ones that relate to home in a roundabout way. People are really getting it. Museum of the Home might be a platform where they want their ideas to be put out there, or a different lens put on their thinking and their thoughts. That’s been really, really great.

Simon: I think it might be interesting to give any advice on getting the board and those important stakeholders on board to a new brand. It feels to me it’s about the power of storytelling — that people come with an expectation and feeling, and it’s a hugely persuasive job that you need to do.

Sonia: Yes. It’s an interesting one, because this was my first job where I was directly engaging with a board of trustees. I didn’t have a sense of what was normal and what wasn’t. And I remember being really terrified. I think it took us three attempts at board to get this passed. And I remember thinking at attempt two, my gosh — but what I wasn’t doing was seeing it all as part of the process. Because every step of the way, the board are actually giving really useful advice. If you remember, it was never “no — stop”. It was: “we want to see more of this”, or “we’re not convinced about that”.  I think it’s about keep going, providing you’re getting that constructive nod to keep going, because it’s not necessarily going to be an overnight “ta-da, here’s the brand, do you like it or not?”

It will take time, and people are going to go at different paces. We had to get the staff on board as well, before we even went to the board of trustees. And then there are visitors, community groups you’re working with — everyone’s going to be on a different time scale. It’s about pulling all of that together. I suppose it’s: don’t be disheartened by the no’s along the way.

Simon: And almost take the challenges, because they’ll make you better. And if your story can’t quite face up to the challenges, maybe it’s not good enough — that’s the other thing.

Sonia: And I think: know why you’re doing it. We weren’t necessarily saying it’s got to be this brand at the beginning, or this is how we have to do it. We were going with a problem we were trying to solve: we want to engage more visitors; we want to tell more diverse stories of home; and we want to be a relevant organisation for the 21st century. Those are the problems we were trying to solve, and we think a rebrand might be the way to do that — as opposed to leading with a rebrand without the questions, without the problems. Which can be a temptation — if it’s solely that my brand is visually looking a bit old — that’s one thing. But for us, it was more fundamental than that. It was: we need to change in all kinds of ways. It was much more than a rebrand.

Sonia: When did you realise that you should be pushing us a bit further? When do you work out with a client that they’re being a bit timid — because it’s a danger, isn’t it? You could push people too far when they’re not ready.

Simon: It’s completely psychology. And I think there’s a reading of whether the appetite is there. But I think a lot of our job is also pushing our clients to that point of being slightly uncomfortable. And we say to them: that’s how you should want to feel. You should want to feel a little bit uncomfortable, because that is when you know you’re getting to something that is doing something different — something different to the people’s brains who will interact with your brand. It’s about forming new connections with people. And yes, it’s scary, but this is the time to do it.

Branding exercises are the time to ask those big questions and to feel a little uncomfortable. Obviously we don’t want to make people feel too uncomfortable — and it definitely has happened. But we have your best interests at the top of our minds, and we want you to be successful. And we take a view through our experience on what that success can look like through a brand.

With you, the glint was so obviously there. And there was a little bit of: we’re seeing the barriers, but I think a lot of those barriers were about getting people on board, the right story, the right purpose, something as powerful as the idea of the home. It was about unlocking that story and that potential. People understanding it and saying, we’re not throwing the Geffrye, and that fantastic, dedicated community, away by any stretch — they are so welcome, they’re still core — But yet we have the chance to show the breadth of this particular idea.

Sonia: It’d be great to rerun that brand perception piece — the one you were referring to, where people said it’s dusty furniture — and see where we want to move it to. It’d be really useful, wouldn’t it, to see that again.

Simon: You go on the website today — it is the complete opposite of dusty furniture. And it’s wonderful just seeing people interact with the room sets. Really, really wonderful. 

I’d love to hear about the impact that the brand has had. This is a pure invitation to show off about successes.

Sonia: Our visitor numbers are fantastic, we are on course to double visitor numbers from pre-pandemic levels within probably the next three to four years. That’s the trajectory we’re on. Visitors are going up and up, both online and in real life, all the time which I think is bucking the trend of a lot of cultural organisations at the moment. People are still discovering us. We haven’t reached saturation yet.

Simon: Thinking about the future, because you mentioned from the very beginning that your collection goes from 1600 to the future — what is the future of the museum, and what is the future of the brand?

Sonia: We would like to become more nationally and internationally known. We feel that we’re managing to reach lots of people in London, in terms of them starting to know who we are and what we do.

The Museum of the Home as a concept could operate anywhere and everywhere. We would love to start to roll that out more — do more projects and more partnerships outside of London — because we are a nationally funded museum.

It’s a window onto the world. We do see ourselves as local, national, international. With some of our room sets, for example, a lot of those are telling the story of migration from all different kinds of groups, which gives us that window onto where those stories have come from, what histories people are bringing with them when they relocate to London. So we could open that back up and look more widely.

That’s definitely the future. I think we want to grow into that discussion and conversation place — the go-to place for conversations about home and the meaning of home. And there are areas that we want to get a lot more confident with, such as home as a socioeconomic space. I think the economics of home, and whether it’s given sufficient consideration, is something that we would like to explore much more, because we feel that might be the key to unlocking some of the issues we’re facing as a society.

Simon: Final question, hindsight is 20/20, looking back, what is your one piece of advice for anyone looking to make a cultural rebrand?

Sonia: I would say: be brave, and push yourself further than you’re comfortable being. Even if you end up reverting, I think it’s good to swing the pendulum. We swung the pendulum and stayed there, but had we not done it, we wouldn’t have even known what was possible. Always swing that pendulum. Map out the wildest possible scenario and see if you can go there.

Simon: I love that. And of course it had to have a slight home metaphor in there — the pendulum of the clock. 

Sonia: I only speak in metaphors.

Simon: Clarifying that story, going for that debating purpose — to see that it’s proving so fruitful is really wonderful.

Sonia: It really has, and the fact that we haven’t even reached the limitations of it. We talked about that nonlinear process — I think that’s been super important. 

If I was to look back, it would be: embrace the nonlinear. Don’t get too hung up with “I’ve got to have that before I have that”, or “I’ve got to have sorted that out”. Sometimes throwing it all into the pot and seeing what comes out is really good. 

And if I were in a position where we could do anything, I'd want to be in a situation where we could afford to continually work on the brand — for it to be an ongoing partnership that we had over a decade, where we just evolved it constantly. Because it is evolving all of the time. Rather than once every five years doing a refresh, it’s that constant, slight tweaking that would probably be more in keeping with how things seem to be. That’s what I would love to do. I think that’s what the brand needs: slight, constant evolution.

Simon: To constantly stay relevant.

Sonia: Yeah, to constantly stay relevant, to constantly react. There’s a quote from Adrienne Maree Brown where she says, “be like water” which I always really like. I like that idea that you just flow a bit more. And sometimes things dry up, and sometimes they flourish, and you’ve got to keep the pathways going.

Simon: Flow and adapt. And I think every design agency would be very happy to hear you say, let’s do constant brand work. So amen to that.

Sonia: No, but that is the dream. Because otherwise you end up in a bit of a stop-start, or you’re having to do another big refresh. Sometimes a big refresh is needed, isn’t it? You’ve got to start from scratch, or you’ve got to clear the decks. But I think, when a brand is working, the danger is you think: well, it’s working. But in fact, it needs to evolve all the time. We all change our wardrobes constantly until you realise two years on that you’ve got different things altogether.

Simon: That was a really lovely answer. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sonia: Thank you very much.